P*****x's turbo failure

parralegend

parralegend

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Forum Administrator
Hi Guys,

Pinching a topic from a deadbeat forum but anyways .

PLEASE NOTE THIS IS A FYI for people considering a turbo conversion based on a users experience

This is the content

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tremeBoost are selling full Turbo Kit's for the CJ. The parts list is as below:

T3 Garrett Super 60 Turbocharger
JGS 40mm wastegate
Custom Stainless Downpipe
Custom Bar & Plate for the FMIC
Custom Exhaust Manifold (Extractor/Headers)
Huge Front Mount Intercooler
14 Gauge Aluminum intercooler piping
4 Ply Silicone Fittings
V band clamps
Stainless Steel Clamps
HKS Super Sequential (SSQV) or Greddy Type RS BOV ( your choice )
Stainless steel oil feed line and return line
AEM filter
Upgraded Fuel pump

*All nuts and bolt/brackets to make the fitting.

Optional Power Options:

Full Aluminum Exhaust System (same one designed by XB for the Evo X)
Ceramic Coating on manifolds
Polished piping for that Fast n Furious look! Very Happy
Full Engine Internals, consisting on heavy stuff like Forged Conrods, Cranks, Pistons etc.

What you will need for sure (not included):
An Ecu tuner, that is willing to tune an Evo X (suggestions of OpenECU, Haltech or ECUTEK)
A Boost Controller

Optional extra's that are recommended:
Bigger brake kit(D2 Racing make a 6 pot and 8 pot for the CJ but you'll need custom brackets which will cost you between $300 - $1,200 for front, and multiply that for rear. Note these are BRACKETS ONLY, not the cost of the brakes yet)

OR...

Ceramic Brake Pads (something like Endless SSS)
Cross Drilled or Slotted Brake Rotors
Braided brake lines
Turbo Timer

In order of importance:
Turbo Boost gauge
Innovate Wideband A/F Kit (anyone wanna buy a analog gauge off me! Very Happy)
Fuel Pressure Gauge
Intake Manifold Pressure Gauge
Oil Pressure Gauge

Future upgrades:
Internals (above)
Rear braces and struts
Better tyres
Better Clutch (SPEC clutches are being sold for the CJ, but I know a place that can custom fit Exedy's in, hit me up for more info if you're serious Wink )


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Now currently i have no idea of the status for xtremeboosts turbo kit but i would like to advise the people here what happened with a certain lancer owner went and boosted his car based xtremeboosts design.

IT WENT KABOOM!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

He ran it at 12PSI without any internal strengthening and the engine died.

I just felt the need to open the discussion as my thoughts were shutdown nearly 2 years ago when i first argued about the conversion but it turns out theirs a reason why idiots don't succeed .


If any Admin's or Moderators feel this is a inappropriate discussion feel free to remove it as i don't want to cause controversy only share valuable knowledge.

Cheers
 
So what went kaboom exactly a piston out the block From to much psi ?

I dont know what a cj compression runs but didnt read anything about dropping that down from the above.
 
No wonder it went bang, 12psi on stock internals?!?

I thought the guy that did do it took the precautions and strengthened his engine. The guys over in the US were blowing their engines at 8 with stock internals with the RRM set up. Even the RRM guys have said do not run these kits higher than 5psi on stock internals.

I honestly thought that the guy that did it did it properly but 12psi with stock internals that is disaster waiting to happen.

edit*

The NA internals can handle only small amounts of boost. Anything higher than 5 and they go bang
 
Didn't road race advertise their kits are like 7-8 setup? what are the horror stories of those guys i'm interested :)
 
parralegend said:
Didn't road race advertise their kits are like 7-8 setup? what are the horror stories of those guys i'm interested :)
Click to expand...

Bang, bang, bang and more bang :lol:

Na, well some of them did but for good reason. For the owners that stuck with the level of boost RRM advised them on their cars survived. The ones that pushed out too mush boost on stock internals well theirs went bang. With the RRM kit, its 5-8pounds of boost any higher and its at your own risk. I think their dev car is still running even after all these years. I know one guy out in the US went through 2 engines before moving on to the 4B12

No matter which way you go (either of the turbo kits or other induction) you must strengthen your internals. Whoever says you dont need to especially in our NA CJ lancers is an idiot.
 
NICE AS said:
I dont know what a cj compression runs but didnt read anything about dropping that down from the above.
Click to expand...
10:1 IIRC....
 
My Honda internals at 10.8:1 holds up fine at 11 psi. It all depends on fuel used and the tuner. I don't know anything about cj engines but there isn't enough evidence that the engine failed due to it running boost or if was poorly tuned / maintained.

Dyno charts? Fuel used? Who tuned it?

Seems more like a piss take on someone rather then an informative post
 
Its not a he say/she say over the turbo FWD CJ Lancers; many of them actually did blow their engines and it was down to running too much boost and running stock internals. Many of the guys that were blowing their engines were running stock internals and had gone over the specified boost level. Man naturally could not help themselves and pushed the cars too much; they may have got away running stock internals at lower boost but ego comes into play and engine goes bye bye not long after.

In stock NA form, the 4B11 engine is not strong enough to support mid-high boost levels. The block itself is strong, the internals arent (rods and pistons).

Honda though, completely different. Honda make really good engines for both turbo and charging. Honda also make strong NA engines.

Parralegend, did you get the 'hush hush' treatment over at that place? Ah the stories :lol: I think I remember who you were over there
 
A few guys over in the US and Pheonix here in Australia. There are quite a few turbo FWD CJ's in the US but only a couple down here and word is one of them went bang (Pheonix).

The cars that were going bang all had similar problems:

-Running stock internals
-CVT transmissions
-Over boosting

Again the internals in the NA CJ Lancer are not strong enough to handle mid-high boost levels. The CVT can not handle turbo at all (heat transfer kills the transmission). Many performance tuners out there have said the NA internals can not cope with turbo applications. If you want to turbo the NA CJ you must upgrade your internals to either RA, Evo or aftermarket forged offerings. As for the boost levels; the companies that have these kits specify how much boost to run to protect their reputations and your car. Naturally you will get customers that dont listen and over boost with their particular set up.

The guys that stayed with the tuners specifics and ones that did the extra work to strengthen their engines rarely had a blown engine. Those guys got a lot of life out of their cars until they either sold them or moved on to other cars or in the rare case they blew up/involved in accidents.

As for Pheonix; he was most likely caught up in marketing bullshit by the company who he brought his turbo kit from. At the time when this particular kit came out there was a whole lot of competitor slamming from the company. At the time, RRM were the only other tuner offering turbo kit for the NA Lancer. Naturally in the business world you pitch your product as the superior offering and your competitor has the inferior product. Unfortunately at that time RRM had a bad reputation over in the US and naturally a business competitor capitalized on it. The drama happened in the US but it extended out to the international communities via bullshit marketing; Pheonix more than likely saw/heard of the slamming and got sucked in.

What everyone has to keep in mind though is all this happened around 2years ago. Things change in 2years...
 
Pretty sure phoenix's went bang ages ago, no idea why this is being replayed now?

Maybe I am getting confused with someone else if this is a recent development. If it's old news then this topic should not exist.
 
I think what has brought it up is that guy in Melbourne with a VRX that is in the process of putting turbo on. That guy has known of the failed turbo FWD CJ's here in AU and elsewhere and Parralegend has found other info that may help the guy out over at another club.

There is useful info in the thread though. PSI and what has happened to the other Lancers that were turbo and didnt make it. Clear pattern of the failed ones; over boosting on stock internals and the occasional one that went to turbo the CVT.

Currently, all turbo kits for the FWD CJ are for manual versions. There are CVT kits in development but those are at your own risk they are not proven yet for mainstream use.

Unfortunately, the info for this particular thing is scattered everywhere and some clubs have covered up some of the aspects that could have prevented further blown engines. A person needs to know what they are getting themselves into and a club was doing the hush hush on any negative aspects on it which in the long run does not help anyone out. People's ego's and club reps were involved and screwed it up for anyone that wanted to try it out for themselves.

If you dont know the negatives then you dont know what to avoid or look out for and can potentially have a failed project on your hands due to lack of info out there on it.
 
tjoz said:
Unfortunately, the info for this particular thing is scattered everywhere and some clubs have covered up some of the aspects that could have prevented further blown engines. A person needs to know what they are getting themselves into and a club was doing the hush hush on any negative aspects on it which in the long run does not help anyone out. People's ego's and club reps were involved and screwed it up for anyone that wanted to try it out for themselves.

If you dont know the negatives then you dont know what to avoid or look out for and can potentially have a failed project on your hands due to lack of info out there on it.
Click to expand...

Yeah I knew that this person was going to put the bolt-on kit onto the Lancer but last I had heard it had been delayed blah blah blah and wasnt happening. I guess what spurred this thread on must've been the talk of tjoz's build and also when I was talking to Steve about this the other week on the way to the footy about not knowing that P's build had actually gone ahead and went bang. I know there is one Brisbane member on here also that had been considering turboing their CJ and I'm sure there will be plenty more to come over the years as the CJs second hand value drops so to me there is some merit in this being here for future reference
 
CVT kits in development... ?

The RRM CVT kit has been available for over a year or more... They specifically only use a very small turbo on an extremely small charge. They can handle it, have seen a few on You Tube and other sites...

The rhetoric is the same everywhere, but 250hp seems to be as much as the CVT will handle and I doubt much more is really needed. It's a CVT and therefore the weak link...

But, all the ballyhoo about how much the stock 4b11 can handle or the 4b12 (I am doubting the 4b12 has superior anything, just a different bore x stroke).

seems like a massive error on the owner of aforementioned vehicle to douse it with 12psi... oh well, you live and you learn.
 
how well was the car tuned for the turbo setup.
what air fuel ratios etc.
theres more to a turbo setup than i got a big turbo and ran 12psi and blew up the engine.
provide some more information and learn why it blew up and if every single precuation was made so there was supporting mods
 
Hens said:
how well was the car tuned for the turbo setup.
what air fuel ratios etc.
theres more to a turbo setup than i got a big turbo and ran 12psi and blew up the engine.
provide some more information and learn why it blew up and if every single precuation was made so there was supporting mods
Click to expand...

No one knows the specifics on Pheonix's car as there were other circumstances involved with his car (tuner did not want certain aspects to be public knowledge). From what info you can find on it the tuner wanted to develop kits here in Australia and have some sort of exclusivity over the whole thing. At that time there were only a few tuners in Australia working with CJ Lancers. I dont even think we were to know the engine blew. Most of us knew the car had gone through with the turbo but only recently we found out it died. Its just dodgy circumstances surrounding that particular car.

With everything involved in Pheonix's car; it looks as if he got the raw end of the stick and was a passenger in the whole process. From the outside it looked like he had no say in it at all.

The US guys though that is much easier to find out. I can ask around.
 
Ask away.. but the kits have been demonstrated on both CVT and manuals for quite some time...

People give RRM stick, but their kits look not only available, but tested and from accounts reliable (because they don't push limits, which is smart given the 4B non-turbo engine's inherent limit/capabilities).

Just my 2c
 
Ive put in for clearer info on the failed turbo CJ's everywhere and also for info on making a FWD CJ turbo last past the initial turbo install. Hopefully this puts to end all the 'he say/she say' crap and gives anyone else out there that is considering putting turbo in their FWD CJ some clearer info for a successful turbo conversion.

If people want to turbo their NA CJ then let them. So what the RA/Evo can be picked up for x amount of money; its their car not yours. Not everyone wants an RA/EVO/AWD so let them do what they wish.

The goal is to give people the info for a successful turbo conversion to limit the amount of blown engines that come as a result of poor installs/ego's bigger than Texas.
 
Got some info back, still not entire specific details but better than nothing.

With the turbo kits; the tune is what will make or break the car. If your car is not properly tuned you will have a blown engine on your hands; forged internals or stock. Biggest areas of the tune are AFR and fuel maps; with all CJ Lancers running rich from factory the people that were having blown engines were down to aggressive tunes or backyard internet flash tunes. Unaltered fuel maps and the rich AFR settings from factory can lead to explosive detonations inside your chambers (blown pistons and warped rods). Save up and get the car tuned properly; looking for the cheap option will end up with a blown engine. If you want your car to survive this is one area where you should not cut corners.

Another area of blown engines are cams; if you do upgrade your cams upgrade everything else that goes with them. Yes the aftermarket Evo parts will fit in but for the NA owners we also need the other parts that go with it. For us its not a direct plug and play option like they are in the Evo. If we do go forged cams we also need to do the valves springs and retainers. A problem found was guys were putting in the Evo cams but not the rest of the stuff and striking was going on from the higher lift profiles of the cams. Ive spoke to RPW on this ages ago last year and they too have said similar things; if you do upgrade your cams to Evo gear or even RA try to get as much of the components as you can. With the 272 profile we may get away with stock valves and retainers but 282 we have to swap them out. Getting more info on cams over the coming week so will be able to give more specific info on that.

As for stock internals; with a turbo set up the safe range is from 5-8pounds of boost but with a very safe tune they can push out to 9. Stock internals can not handle anything over 10. With your internals; it all comes down to the tune. If not tuned properly you will have a blown engine on your hands. Forged internals its the same thing; the tune will make or break your car.

Last bit; there are more than 2 turbo FWD CJ's in Australia. There are a few from RRM alone and another one is being sent out this week. As for XtremeBoost; yet to contact them but there is a bit of info on them; There kit still has issues with it and has not had as much R&D as what RRM have done with theres. RRM have a good track record with their kits and have continually improved it over the years
 
Another update:

A FWD CJ was turbo down here in Melbourne. Only recently blew its engine. Was using the XtremeBoost kit but not its turbo manifold. Was using one off the Evo instead. Turbo was only installed recently. No tune was done (that we know of). The owner had the car for a few weeks at most. Car was second hand. Western suburbs location. It was a backyard job as the owner his parents own several businesses throughout VIC and had access to a smashed Evo at some stage through one of these businesses.

Will see what more info I can get from it but so far its not looking good for the XtremeBoost kit; XtremeBoost not at complete fault as both owners did stupid *poo*.

So boys; there are more turbo FWD CJ's in Australia
 
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