Discussion in 'CE Lancers and Mirages' started by Robby, Feb 13, 2016.
hey man, good to see its working well!
i am running it on a mostly stock car using both 25570100 MAF and 25570300 SD roms using my own values made from educated guesses/pinched from other roms and its running well. 450kms roughly to a tank with alot of hard driving cruising nicely at 14.7AFR and fuel trims in check, hovering no more than 5%.
stock MAF, orange 210cc injectors. startup isnt as perfectly smooth but still fine, idle tends to drop alot when coming to a stop but always recovers perfectly. stable 700rpm warm idle.
people have found fixes for this in other roms so im sure they can be found in this one too...
another thing is the odd throttle response/engagement jerkyness when on/off and low load cruising. im putting this down to extra settings effecting the fuel calculations, such as decel fuel cut resume and other tables that are not defined yet. the stock rom just drives a little smoother in some scenarios.. probably corrections for the larger injectors found on the evo.. again nothing too bad, you learn to ignore it and sometimes it actually drives better than the stock settings, there must be a happy medium if we had all the tables defined.
It would be awesome to find someone capable to finish the xml as much as possible. we could potentially fund a "group buy" to pay them to finish a definition file completely!? if anyone is keen put your hand up. i think Merlin on EvoM would be keen but im sure he would want to be paid for his efforts..
i have been using the same definitions with a few of my own findings added in.
i have discovered:
extra boost control tables
-target wastegate duty 3
-target wastegate duty 4
-desired engine load 3
-desired engine load 4
i attempted to find these after having boost control issues on an evo 6 i flashed with ceddymod 25570100. everything seemed well except hitting boost cut in certain circumstances but not others. i have not yet reflashed the car and tested if they work.. will do in coming weeks
this test was using a genuine evo 6 ecu that was originally 24430002
the ce ecu *apparently* doesn't have the internal hardware to use the boost solenoid anyway.. but i haven't tried.
-ign retard limit (tested working -20)
-ign advance limit (set to 50 deg - have not played with it and i suggest you don't either! haha)
these i grabbed from an SD definition file 25570300 from evom member todd. - thanks!
i applied these by copying sections of other 25570000 xmls and adding onto the existing xml.
i am hoping to find a few more tables that may be of use for speed density conversion, and general behaviour.
MrFred posted an awesome thread on evolutionm outlining more tables he had found while digging through the evo 7/8/9 rom.
many of the tables are carried over from the earlier evo 5/6 ecu, with those extra tables he mentions found in the evo 5/6 rom we could have a fully working sd setup, aswell as a more "free" control over fuel calculations for fuel cut and maf corrections.
i have spoken to mrfred and he isnt familiar enough with the evo 5/6 to attempt the task at the moment, but maybe would with some encouragement? haha.
i have attached an xml with a few added tables over the one you posted for you to check out
I got around like 90% of those issues by not running any boost control solenoid except for a manual boost controller lol.
Ign retard was an easy one to do, but in my definition its listed like 3 or 4 times. Luckily changing one of them forces the others mentions to change as well. Ign advance i think is a good one, but i didn't realise there was a limit to it - in datalogging ive seen upwards of 40 to 45 degrees of advance in certain situations, so didnt deem it doesnt thats required.
Also never had an issue with the decel fuel cut, but i did get some issues with the SAS Antilag kicking in at bad times. If you zero everything out for the SAS, it runs a heappp better.
The larger injectors/slow speed/light throttle jerkyness i feel is all definitely related. Its like using a bulldozer (the injectors) to organise a dozen small pebbles (fuel) - the stock setup which is a tablespoon sorting out the pebbles. Its do-able, but the bulldozer would needs a tiny or customized scoop (or magnetic, with the pebbles being magnetic lol? this is like changing other ECU parameters to suit such as the global fuel enrichment) , or a skilled operator (which is just putting up with the jerkyness). Not an easy way around it, not yet anyway. The resolution in the ECU simply isnt available, and to do so would require a bit of the spare RAM space to be used to get down to this level, which im not sure is possible. Add in different fuel types such as E85 which reacts differently to normal petrol due to being oxygenated, and its a hard situation.
I have a feeling that there is decel/accel resume corrections, as in injector latency.
I feel that they spray too much too quickly sometimes and the engine wants to jump forward instead of smoothly accelerate.
People have mentioned similar tables in other roms... I'm sure there are lots of features not yet discovered!
Have a read through that thread I linked above. Got the gears turning in my brain reading it. The solution all speed density issues should be fixable with the extra fables he mentioned, this would also improve driveailty on MAF too.
Thats weird as, I never have any jerkyness unless i cut throttle suddenly under full boost (jerkyness is from the high boost (that is already processed by the MAF) forcing it way into the manifold through the semi-closed throttle, plus lower timing + fueling from the semi-closed throttle). Decel timings and all that is as per the stock Evo5/6 ceddymods mapping.
The jerkyness that i had, i believe is from the SAS settings. I spent weeks adjusting the values and troubleshooting, before just giving up and settings them to unrealistic figures so the SAS never "activates", and it fixed the issues. What size injectors are you running?
Do you have a working SD ROM/xlm for the evo5-6/ceddymods? I always thought it was still unfinished, despite the tables being there?
im using the stock orange "210cc" injectors. so a fair bit smaller than stock evo injectors, therefore any injector corrections would probably be out of whack.
Yes i have an SD rom and XML. I was sent it by someone who said it was a finished or fixed version. name of the person escapes me, but im sure it is fine to share for development purposes...
Im currently building the 3D VE table to suit stock engine with mild mods.
its working well! i just need to do more logging and adjusting before im happy.
There has been a number of people reporting jitters in the injector pulsewidth under certain scenarios causing the car to surge slightly when cruising at light load.
it was outlined in that thread i linked above, and that there are extra tables that have not yet been found relating to MAF signal that therefore effects the SD conversion.. may be the fix.
there are SD 4 fixes included in the XML i have, im using "fix number 1" number 2 and 3 seem to relate to CEL issues and not actual running. there is also another setting labelled" SD jitter fix (set to 255) " however that seemed to cut off the fueling completely when it reached certain load zones while coasting/super light accel. it cuts fuel for 1 second, comes back on for 3 or 4 , cut fuel again repeatedly. so i have that one left disabled.
people have had mixed results with the fix im using saying it effects afr slightly in some low load areas but nothing that cant be tuned out... im yet to prove this. should have an swer in 3 or 4 days.
once the ve table is fine tuned and im confident its not a tuning error, i can let you know first hand if the jitter is infact still an issue with the version i have and also release a rough 4g93 NA basemap to members for testing
Oooooohhh, so is the jitter is related to the SD rom you have, not so much the MAF rom? Have you datalogged timing during the jitters? I know erratic fueling during light load can cause some surging, but a 10% change in fuel is nothing compared to how much impact a 10% change in timing has. At all RPM or around a set amount?
Edit: when it jitters, if your reflexes are quick enough, back off the throttle completely and then reapply it, and see if that cancels out the jitter
Just thinking aloud here; the e5/6 ROM is a lot more basic than the e7 and up ROMs. A lot of the values in the e5/6, such as cranking injector pulse width, is paired with another value (the 4.xVolt value in the injector latency table). The e7+ ROM have a tonne more memory, and as such have the space to have their own tables for each of these things.
I found out last night too, that the Desired Load 3 & 4 options are for the switched maps. Maps 1 and 2 are like High and Low Octane Primary fuel maps, and 3 & 4 are the Secondary (or a mix & match, it wasnt clear enough in its description). No idea if that helps, or if thats previously been mentioned - it was news to me haha.
Found this post of yours;
This happens on the OEM standard ROM as well - its low load and high rpm (higher than normal expected cruise/higher than normal fuel decel enable), and high timing.
I expect it there is a hysteresis setting for this which would contain Load (which from memory is calculated from RPM x something else?) and Speed;
when on decel with the TPS open it still hits values in the timing maps, but as load starts to equalise/slow down from cell jumping, fuel cut overrides this until the fuel enable rpm is reached
Also somewhat related, I get a CEL every time i drive. Always happens around 3-5minutes after pulling out the driveway, or a minute or two if the car is warm. Pulling the code says its a MAF related issue (by checking the code as a CE), but i havent cross checked the same code number against the Evo 5/6 setup (as i run ceddymods). I had a hunch, so i did a test the other week, where i kept my RPM below 2100. Had a 30min trip and no CEL. I believe this is to do with either fuel trims, as i get no trims within Ceddymods mappings, or the "self-learning" of the Air limits or whatever its called within the XML.
I just want to ask it in plain english - I have evo7 ecu with matching 399 MAF and 560cc injectors w/factory resistor pack. I shouldn’t have to make any maf scaling adjustments should I?
Motor is 4g94
As the MAF matches the ECU values, it should all be fine. The engine could be super down on power/vac, or had a rod out the block, but as the MAF is feeding a correctly scaled airflow value to the ECU, in the format that the ECU is expecting, it's all okay.
Just while it was a topic on here recently, thought I’d check. Most of my reference information is from inactive members on inactive threads from early 2010’s. Cant exactly ask them about their one or two bits of conflicting information across a whole forum lol
I 100% know where youre coming from lol. At least with the E7 ECU it's a couple of years fresher than the E5/6 setup
yes the "IPW/unknown Jitter" im experiencing is on the SD rom, which the issue arises right around the area of throttle/load that it cuts out fuel completely on the maf rom. my understanding is that the pulsewidth "jitters" very slightly causes a fluctuation in AFR from target to lean then rich and then back to target. like it wants to cut fuel but then delayed decides not to and continues as normal, if load increases it will not do it again until you try to slowly decelerate like going from 80 to 70kmh.
so its to do with the way the map sensor acts compared to the maf and what needs to be changed to make it run seamlessly that needs to be discovered..
the jitter fixes people have discussed have had various results, some claiming it worked, others say it made it worse or no difference noticed.
iv found this is the least noticeable with jitter fix 1 disabled (set to 0) and SD nop 1,2 &3 switched from 0x2004 to 0x0000.
in my current case im having the following issues.
-random fluctuation of idle. seems like idle learning isnt working correctly for some reason. car likes to oscillate between 1000-1100 continuously despite being set to standard values.
-afr wander when crusing in part throttle as explained above, currently it seems to like to go 13.2 - 15.5 randomly if the target is 14.7, sometimes jitter is there, others not. people have mentioned side effects of certain jitter fixes such as these, a combination of the right settings may make it run well, but you guys will have to test for yourselves and see.
i can send the rom out in semi finished state for you guys to test out for yourselves.. please request it by posting here or PMing me!
MAF version confirmed working on a stock car. SD driveable but issues as above.
Inadvertently came across some info relating to the MAF’s we use. I don’t know how useful this is to others but it’s super important for my troubleshooting.
The 399 MAF has been used in turbo and non turbo NON EVO lancers with varying success. As it is the highest flowing stock MAF from Mitsubishi, it struggles with lower idle speed readings. The smoothing becomes very important when trying to correct idle. Some people use stock values from 8/9 EVO maps with no problems. I, like others have done the same HOWEVER have not had entire success. The cold start is okay, driving is okay, but at idle the AFR starts at 14.7 and gets richer over a period of 15-20 seconds. Then jumps back to 16ish, settles on 14.7. Cycle repeats. As this goes on, the fuel trim readings follow the AFR. Ie as it goes richer the trims try to lean it out and when it goes lean, the ecu tries to trim it rich. At 14.7, near 0 trim. So the ECU see’s and “knows” that it’s doing wrong, but even so, cant compensate correctly.
This should be solved with a bit of trial and error with smoothing tables. It had also been said that using the tables from a 482 maf can cure this. When I’m up and running again, I will update.
Originally I thought this was injector fault, air leaks or fpr fault. MAF makes more sense looking at the fault pattern entirely
I wish i saved my massive spiel a couple weeks about the MAF and how it works etc.
To recap, the MAF is a karmen vortex styled sensor, which is a sensor that reads pulses in air flow after an obstruction. In the mitsubishi MAFs, there is a engineered obstruction (usually a tan colour) that is designed to cause incoming air to swirl around it, exactly the same movement as a flag whipping in the wind. The sensor is behind this pole, and reads the amount of whipping/how far the whips extend (the faster the air incoming, the larger and sharper the whips). It can read from about 25hz up to 1200hz and above (actual air flow doesnt matter too much, as you just tell the ECU that the sensor reads a max of xyz, and how many grams per second over hz, and the ECU will scale the range according.
The ECU will change fuel injection at cruise/idle to monitor and confirm the airflow as correct - if the airflow incoming is at a fixed rate, fuel injection will vary (e.g increases) to make sure its still active. The ECU is able to fine-tune itself this way, but only to a very small degree. This is called closed-loop.
If you change the MAF size, or the g/s, you'll get the right ballpark of your MAF. Then you'll need to scale the MAF, or guesstimate the changes, so that the rate is correct. This all needs to be verified with a wideband to make sure youre not melting anything
You are on the right track with the maf smoothing SDate42
The final revision of my SD rom is so close i can smell it!
Jitter completely gone. Idle fixed. AFR almost perfected.
Hey gang, I have an interesting question ....... what are the limitations of retuning the 4G93 (plastic case obviously) ECU? what can't you reflash tune after modifying? Ie cams? Turbo? Throttle body? the number of throttles? add or subtract sensors etc
You just save the rom as another name. Before doing any edits its best to save the original.
I've attached an image of what the tunable options are on a stock 4G93 ECU, and of what the Evo5/6 options are.
On post #181 (http://auslancer.com/index.php?threads/ce-lancer-ecu-tuning.9142/page-10#post-238607) is the CM5A tunable options,
Separate names with a comma.